Bestselling author Marianne Williamson: Jewish, pro-Israel, and open to 9/11 truth

by Kevin Barrett

With four NY Times #1 bestsellers, spiritual activist Marianne Williamson is one of the most popular authors on the planet. More importantly, she’s a genuine spiritual leader who’s not afraid to use her considerable gifts to awaken others to their moral responsibilities, even when it involves stepping out of their – and her – comfort zones.

I’m not a fan of new age spirituality – I’m more of a traditionalist (the school that believes real spirituality needs to be embodied in a religious tradition). But even coming from a completely different point of view, I recognize that Marianne Williamson is no new age quack – she’s the real deal. I applaud her efforts and pray for her success.

Below is the transcript of our amazing conversation on Monday’s Truth Jihad Radio, including a seminal contribution from Finian Cunningham. Note that Marianne isn’t the only Jewish pro-Israeli willing to ask the hard questions about 9/11: Today’s Truth Jihad Radio (3 to 5 pm on AmericanFreedomRadio.com) features Barry Chamish, the right-wing Zionist who recently astounded the world by admitting Zionist involvement in 9/11. The show will also feature Christopher Bollyn, whose book Solving 9/11 helped trigger Barry Chamish’s insight.

Kevin Barrett interviews Marianne Williamson

Kevin Barrett interviews spiritual activist and NY Times #1 bestselling writer Marianne Williamson

7/27/2012

Part 1

Marianne Williamson

On November 10th and 11th, in Los Angeles, we’re doing an event called Sister Giant: Birthing a New American Politics. People can attend in person, people can attend via Livestream, and it’s very much what you were talking about earlier. But I think the point, when you’re talking about mixing religion and politics, is that there’s a difference between religion in politics versus spirituality in politics. Obviously the separation of church and state is one of the more enlightened aspects of our system, of our Bill of Rights, and so forth. And nobody is messing with that. However, as you said yourself, the spiritual viewpoint, which simply means that which arises from a view of the world that goes deeper than just external circumstances, that has to do with the deeper philosophical questions about who we are as people, what we’re doing on the planet, what our relationship is to each other, what our relationship is to future generations, to the earth itself…these deeper philosophical and spiritual questions seem to have no place in the current political dialogue.  And first of all, it makes anyone whose life is enriched by those deeper spiritual questions not want anything to do with politics. Because if you’re on a spiritual journey, the meanness and toxicity of politics today is everything you don’t want in your life.

And also I think that’s part of why women disconnect from it. We have in the US Congress 16.7 percent women, and in our State Legislatures we have 23.6 percent women. So people who come from any kind of religious or spiritual quest – yoga, recovery, anything like that  – are sort of averse to the current conversation for understandable reasons. And many women are averse to it as well.

So the purpose of Sister Giant is to recreate the field – have a new conversation, a new consciousness, about the political issues of our day. And not only that, but to train women particularly about how to actually run for office, so we can take this new viewpoint and make it more than a conversation – actually turn it into a political force.

Kevin Barrett

Sounds good to me. I do think there’ some truth to the notion that men and women do have some meaningful differences in our consciousness, in our way of relating to the world, and that overall, there is a tendency toward a more nurturing kind of perception among women than among men. And of course there are people who will call me a sexist for saying that. But I agree with you, I think we’ll be better off if we get more women into politics.

Your work in spirituality is sometimes lumped with the New Age movement, and some folks in the New Age movement seem to think that reality is whatever your consciousness pays attention to. And they then want to direct their consciousness away from anything bad. I’ve had a terrible time trying to wake people up – at least those kind of people – to how terrible things have gotten here in the US. Our Constitution is gone now. The President can just order any American, or anybody in the world, executed with no trial and no juridicial proceedings whatsoever. So we’ve completely lost our Bill of Rights. And you try to tell some “spiritual” people about it, and they don’t want to hear it. They want to meditate on something beautiful. How do you change them into people who can put up with the pain?

Marianne Williamson

You make an excellent point. There is a misunderstanding that you find among a lot of so-called spiritual people, in just the way that you articulated it. And I think the misunderstanding is not just a misunderstanding about what’s happening in the world, it’s a misunderstanding of spirituality.  Because nothing that would lead you to ignore human suffering is spiritually sound. Buddha became Buddha when he exited his father’s compound and saw human suffering for the first time. So the idea that in the name of the spiritual journey, you’re ignoring the fact that 17,000 children are dying every day from hunger, from starvation, out of a so-called “spiritual” perspective…if you’re ignoring the fact that we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, or any nation in history…that in the name of some “spiritual” perspective you’re ignoring that our own child poverty rate is 23.1 percent…and, as you were saying, the National Defense Authorization Act and so forth…if you, out of some “spiritual” perspective, are ignoring Citizens United and what it does to actually imperil US democracy…all of that’s more of a narcissistic perspective than anything profoundly spiritual.

I don’t think that if you were spiritual you would have ignored slavery, or that if you were spiritual you would have ignored the oppression of anyone anywhere.

But I think the good news is that a lot of people agree with you and me that denial is not the true spiritual path, that the true spiritual path does mean that we bear witness to the suffering of others, that we bear witness to the darkness of the world, from the perspective of doing what we can to bring light into it. So I think there’s tremendous potential, and a real pregnant moment here, among people on a spiritual journey who are NOT under those illusions about what spirituality is that you articulated. And they ARE ready to realize that service has to be incorporated into their spiritual practice for their spiritual practice to be deeply meaningful.

Kevin Barrett

That makes perfect sense to me. Additionally, as people progress on their spiritual journeys, they get to where they can handle more stress. It’s a lot of stress, paying attention to the bad things going on in the world. And I can understand why some people turn their heads away and put their heads in the sand. But I don’t think that’s a sign of being spiritual at all. I agree with you, I think its a sign of not having reached a point where you can handle it. And I do feel sorry for people who are in that state. And you can’t just force them into a level of stress that they can’t handle. But it’s frustrating, when the world is facing so many horrific problems…and I would add along with the ones you mentioned weaponry in general, and nuclear and other advanced weapons in particular, would be at the very top of the list. Because they’re going to go off in the last act of the play unless we change the script. But they’re so horrible to contemplate that most people just can’t do it. How can you convince people to do it?

Marianne Williamson

Excellent question. The point is very well taken. People will say to me things like, “Well, I’m on a spiritual journey, and if I look at politics, I just get angry, or I get cynical. And I want to stay away from that negativity.”  And I point out that nothing is more negative than complacency. So, if you’re in complete denial about what’s happening in the world, don’t think that’s “spiritual”! (laughter)  There’s nothing spiritual about complacency. This is why I say all the time, people who are involved with an inner journey are the last people who should be sitting out the great political issues of our day.  For the very reason: If you are meditating, if you are involved in a serious spiritual grounding in your life, you’re the one who has keys to what it takes to absorb the energies of anger and cynicism that might otherwise hold us back.  And to take the gifts of a deeper peace, and a deeper conviction around love, into the political arena.  Now the problem is, as we were saying before, there IS no place in the current political arena for the discussion of turning our organizing principle away from economics and toward humanitarian values; putting the care of our children first; dealing with the larger moral issue of what it means that we even have nuclear bombs on the planet. I don’t think most Americans even realize that the United States has over 7000 of them. I don’t think most Americans even realize the things you were saying before about the rights that are now available to the Executive Branch through the National Defense Authorization Act.  And so forth.  How can we break the bad news from a peaceful place? But you know, if you look at any of the great religious stories: yes, Moses led the Jews out of Egypt into the Promised Land; but the point was that they were enslaved there. Yes, Jesus was resurrected; but the point was that he was crucified first. In all of the great religious and spiritual tales, it is a story about a darkness…but you dwell within the darkness with a different consciousness. And in dwelling inside the darkness from a different conversation and a different consciousness, you literally invoke new possibilities. And that’s what Dr. King did in the political realm. And that’s what Mahatma Gandhi did in the political realm. They stood within very serious experiences and situations of oppression and human darkness – and yet from a place of love, calling on love, both in the opponent and in their own comrades as it were, they called forth a different political policy, love as a broad-scale political and social force, and that’s what we need to do now. Martin Luther King was not called a new age nut-case. Gandhi was not called too spiritual for the task. They married the spiritual and the political, and that’s why they both ended up the most successful political figures of the 20th century.

Kevin Barrett

Hear, hear. I’m all with you on those two. How about the difference between religion in politics and spirituality in politics: I think that both Christian involvement in politics in the USA, and to some extent Islamic politics around the world, both have been hindered by a certain loss of the real spirituality, or call it the real religion if you will. There’s kind of a loss of the actual energy that the whole thing is supposed to be about, and a falling back onto empty forms, that causes religions to not be as politically effective as they should be.

Marianne Williamson

First of all, let’s talk about what separation of religion and politics, separation of church and state, is for. It’s a very enlightened concept, obviously. The founders were saying that no musty priest, minister or rabbi and so forth, could walk into the US Congress and determine what the laws would be. And it also means that no policeman or army can come into a house of worship and tell people to break it up because they don’t like their religion. Thomas Jefferson said, “whether a man believes in twenty gods or no gods, neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” So we want to remember that separation of church and state was meant, among other things, to protect the religious conversation, not in any way to limit it. So we’re not talking about introducing religion per se. But we are talking about introducing into the conversation the esoteric meaning, the spiritual core, of religions, which are questions like: Are we, or are we not, our brothers’ keeper? What does it mean to love one another? And if loving one another is the highest law, how does that apply in economics? How does that apply in social policy? How does that apply in the military-industrial complex, and the fact that we put so much more money into developing ways to kill each other, than in developing ways to heal each other.

So that’s number one. Number two, in the American political history, conservatives have traditionally emphasized personal morality, while liberals emphasized public morality. Now, when liberals did emphasize public morality, they saw economic injustice as a moral issue. They saw increased militarism as a moral issue. In today’s world, the American left acts like it’s too cool to talk in terms of moral issues – which is a problem, because moral questions have such a deep, instinctive place inside the human being. And remember, 95% of all Americans say they believe in God. So if you leave out a meaningful conversation about moral and spiritual issues, if you leave out a meaningful conversation about what patriotism means, what it means to love our country…if you leave out the meaningful conversations, people go to the ersatz versions. And that’s exactly what’s happened. And that’s why the right wing, which to many of us, hardly stands for policies of deep religious meaning, often carries people. Because some so-called Christians think, “If I believe in God, then I should be a Republican.” So you’re right, the whole thing has become twisted, almost upside down.

Kevin Barrett

Well, let’s turn it back right-side up.

Marianne Williamson

Yeah, thank you! That’s what we’re trying to do, right?

Kevin Barrett

All right! We’ll be back in a few minutes for more with Marianne Williamson. And we may be getting a quick call-in from Ethiopia, from Finian Cunningham, who’s doing great reporting from the other side of the world.

Part 2

Kevin Barrett

Welcome back to Truth Jihad Radio. I’m Kevin Barrett, talking to Marianne Williamson, the internationally-celebrated spiritual activist and author. But first we’re going to bring on Finian Cunningham for a very brief report from the other side of the world. Finian is currently based in Ethiopia, and he just wrote a brilliant article about the Non-Aligned Conference in Tehran. Finian, can you give us the short version of you r wonderful article on the Non-Aligned Conference?

Finian Cunningham

Thank you for having me on your show. And yes, I think that for a change in this world of grim war-mongering and potential catastrophic meltdown, there is a good news story all of a sudden, and that is the 16th Summit of the Non-Aligned Movement, which is currently taking place in Tehran, the capital of Iran. And the thing is, you’ve got almost 120 missions represented there, in Tehran. And this follows years of attempted isolation of Iran by the United States, Israel, Britain, and the other European lackeys of Washington.

And the world is turning out in force, to be present in Tehran, to court Iran, to stand up and say: Iran has got the right to develop on its own terms, to pursue peaceful nuclear energy, as they are claiming to. And this is great! I think it’s a good news story for a change.

Kevin Barrett

I agree! And it means there’s a lesser likelihood of war breaking out in that part of the world, a large scale war, that could easily lead to World War III, with the Russians and the Chinese lining up with Iran, and the US, the Israelis and the West lining up against it.

Finian Cunningham

Very much true, Kevin. I mean, the American government – no disrespect, you’re an American citizen – with great respect to the American population – but your American government is a fascist regime bent on tearing the world apart, ripping up the Middle East, to get at Iran, to get at China, to get at Russia. And what we’ve got going on this week in Tehran, is a great sign of solidarity among the nations toward Iran, not towards America.

I mean, Washington, London, and France claim to be the international community. What international community? They’re a clique of neo-imperialists! Meanwhile, the rest of the world – 120 nations – are gravitating to Iran to support Iran and support that nation’s development. So it’s a great (middle) finger (held) up to Washington, London, France, and the has-been, neo-colonialist, neo-imperialist nations.

Kevin Barrett

Thank you Finian, that’s a wonderful report and I think it sums things up perfectly.

I’m going to go back to the conversation with Marianne Williamson, and she is working very hard re-envisioning American politics. And we’re going to be trying to change the politics here in the USA so we won’t have this kind of situation where 120 nations in the world have to rush over to Tehran to try to stop the US and its handful of neo-imperialist allies from launching World War III. Thank you so much, Finian.

So Marianne, we just heard from Finian Cunningham. And most people in the USA don’t realize that 120 nations defied the US by going to Tehran.  When President Ahmadinejad of Iran has come to the United Nations, he’s given powerful speeches for 9/11 truth, saying that you Americans, and the world, need to have a real investigation to find out what really happened on 9/11. And then the US walks out with over 30 other countries. And then well over 100 countries remain, and they’ve given him standing ovations when he’s done this in the UN. So the US is becoming so isolated, yet we never hear this in our media. Why is that?

Marianne Williamson

Well, we need to go back a little bit. Because even though I agree with everything that you had said before, and even though I think that there are some fascist tendencies within the US that we need to be very aware of, I thought that this report that we just heard was absurd.

Kevin Barrett

Really?!

Marianne Williamson

Because it presented the government of Iran like they’re a bunch of nice people. He said WE have a fascist government. First of all, I think not all elements – I think it’s time for adults to be nuanced in our conversation, and I think to just say that we have a fascist government is not helpful. Because even though there are elements like the National Defense Authorization Act, like Citizens United, that certainly take us in that direction, and we need to be very careful, I think a broad-stroke saying that – I just don’t feel it’s true. But even more than that: Fascist government? Can we talk about the government of Iran for a moment?

Kevin Barrett

Yeah, let’s talk about Iran, because actually, I’m an Islamic studies expert, and I’m writing for Press TV which is based in Iran because I think that the government in Iran, along with the governments of Cuba and Venezuela, and maybe Costa Rica to a certain extent, are the only sane governments on earth.

Marianne Williamson

You think – ?  Well, I don’t see all of those as the same, but I do not see the government of Iran as sane, at all. I mean, I agree with what you’re saying about Ahmadinejad, and I remember when he gave his talk at the UN, I remember saying “when Ahmadinejad is talking truth you know we’ve got a problem here.” (laughter)  And I certainly agree that the US trying to determine how the world goes, and dividing the world into the parts that we’ve divided it into, and we’re going to just isolate Iran, and that’s going to work, obviously that system is crumbling, and should crumble. I was reading this morning about the meeting that the Egyptian Prime Minister is having. So…the fact that this US dominated formulation is crumbling, not only is true, but also it needs to crumble, because it is not based on the way reality should operate, where any society can dominate how things are going…especially across the world from where they are. Having said that, though, the idea that Iran is not a fascist government to me is ridiculous.

Kevin Barrett

Okay, let’s stop and define our terms. The usual definition of fascism is “corporatism.” It’s when the corporations team up with the military to dominate a society with rabid nationalism. And none of those things is true about Iran. And arguably they’re all true about the US.

Marianne Williamson

Well, if you look at the government in Iran, it’s not the corporations that have lined up, but it is radical elements of the dominant religion. So it would be more like if a dominant religious perspective in the United States teamed up with the government and sought from that perspective to dominate. The idea that Iran has a free government…certainly you would agree with me that the people of Iran are not free, right? It’s not like a woman in Iran can go do whatever she wants?

Kevin Barrett

Iran is far more democratic than the US. Their recent elections were honest. The last US elections have all been rigged. Every single president since George Bush the First has been a CIA organized crime president, basically put in power without any question of the will of the American people even being involved. We know that the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections were completely rigged, that the voting machines we’re now using are black box machines that are programmed with the results before people vote. And none of that is true of Iran. So I do think that Iran does have a freer and more democratic society than the US. And I’m sorry to say that.

Marianne Williamson

I think the idea that the presidential race in Iran was not rigged is silly. But –

Kevin

Look, Marianne, I’m an Islamic studies expert, and I’ve been reading a whole lot about this, and all of the polls, including polls taken by Western and therefore obviously biased pollsters in Iran, showed that Ahmadinejad was going to get 70% of the vote; the official results were that he got, what, 65% or something? There is absolutely no reason not to think that Ahmadinejad won the landslide that he won.

Marianne Williamson

But even if he did, Ahmadinejad is not…Ahmadinejad is ruled by the ayatollahs. He can’t…I mean, the ayatollahs really rule the place.

Kevin Barrett

Well, there’s some truth to that. But if you think about it in a more balanced perspective: Think about how the US is supposed to work, with three branches of government, the executive, legislative, and judiciary, and we right now have basically an executive dictatorship that the so-called Federalist Society has worked so hard to put in place over the past many decades. Whereas in Iran, they have a similar problem to our problem. The problem is that in their society, their judiciary has too much executive power. But if you compare the executive power of Iran’s judiciary to the executive power of the US executive branch, which is actually UNDER organized crime elements outside of the government, Iran actually looks pretty good.

Marianne Williamson

So let me ask you a question, may I?

Kevin Barrett

Sure.

Marianne Williamson

And we don’t have to dwell on it if you don’t want, because we’re not going to convince each other on this.

Kevin Barrett

I love hearing different perspectives.

Marianne Williamson

You’ve been saying things that are radically against the US government. Okay? And I – well, that’s okay, because this is America.

Kevin Barrett

I’m just telling the truth.

Marianne Williamson

So you’re saying things that are radically against the US government, some of which I agree with. But even the parts I don’t agree with, one of the things I do celebrate about the United States, and the freedoms that we do have, is that you’re allowed to do that.

Kevin Barrett

Absolutely.

Marianne Williamson

Are you under any illusions that if you were doing the same thing in Iran, and speaking against the government of Iran as vociferously in Iran as you are now speaking against the government of the United States, that you would be allowed to broadcast?

Kevin Barrett

That’s a very good point, and I probably wouldn’t be.

Marianne Williamson

No you would not.

Kevin Barrett

But let’s look at why that is. There’s a huge and very aggressive military power, the USA, doing everything it can to destabilize these societies and overthrow their governments and assassinate their leaders. So when a relatively powerless country like Cuba or Iran has to defend itself against an extremely powerful aggressor such as the USA and Israel, then they obviously have much more aggressive means to police their own societies. Castro never would have lived if he hadn’t –

Marianne Williamson

So you’re saying that Iran’s not allowing free speech is because of the United States and Israel?

Kevin Barrett

Of course! The US and Israel are all over Iran, blowing up mosques; they’ve murdered many, many thousands of people in terrorist attacks. The US and Israel are killing Iranian scientists left and right. The US is attacking many countries all over the world, not  just Iran. The US is murdering people openly in Pakistan with drone attacks, as well as many thousands of people in false flag attacks (google Raymond Davis CIA). I think, Marianne, that you haven’t really been studying these foreign policy issues. And I don’t blame you. But I think that if you did, you’d probably move in the direction of the views I’ve been expressing, which is that US foreign policy is just unimaginably evil. It’s as bad as any country’s foreign policy, ever.

Marianne Williamson

Well, I actually disagree, and I think that I do have as concerned a view of a lot of American foreign policy as I think you do. I don’t see it as quite the broad stroke that you do. But I don’t think I lack a deep, deep concern about many of the things that you’ve talked about. What I totally do not agree with you about is the idea that Iran is a bunch of nice guys. That’s where I was more disagreeing with you. Not that I whitewash the foreign policy of the United States, but that you whitewash the domestic policy, as well as the foreign policy, of the Iranian government. But that’s okay.

Kevin Barrett

Okay, we’ll agree to disagree on that. Personally, I think the reason that the Iranian government has gotten such bad press is because they dare to express the widespread consensus of the people of the Middle East that the genocidal settler-colonial regime that’s occupying Palestine has to go.

Marianne Williamson

So what would you want, what would be your answer for the Middle East, the Israelis and the Palestinians, that Israel basically not exist any more?

Kevin Barrett

Absolutely. They need to do just what South Africa did: Turn the country over to the indigenous majority, and become a democratic, color-blind country.

Marianne Williamson

So it would no longer be – so that’s interesting. Because you don’t have a problem with the fact that – do you have a problem with the fact that Egypt is a Muslim nation?

Marianne Williamson

If Egypt were ethically cleansing, and making second-class citizens, radically second-class citizens, of the people of other religions in Egypt, yes, I would have a terrible problem with that.

Marianne Williamson

So you do have a problem with the whole notion of Israel as a Jewish state.

Kevin Barrett

Just as I would have the same problem with the notion of any other country as a particular ethnic-religious state in which the indigenous inhabitants of the country where it was created are genocided.

Marianne Williamson

Do you think we should give back North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska and Wyoming to the First Nations?

Kevin Barrett

Yes, actually, I support the First Nations in every struggle that they’re involved with.

Marianne Williamson

Well, they would like that land back.

Kevin Barrett

But Palestine is a radically different situation. Because ultimately, at some level, you have to have a certain amount of realism.

Marianne Williamson

Uh-huh, right.

Kevin Barrett

And the realistic situation is that there was never an excuse for putting a Jewish settler colony in Palestine. The Palestinians didn’t do the holocaust. It was completely wrong. And that was only 50 or 60 years ago. And now we have six or seven million Jews there surrounded by a billion Muslims.  Palestine has been Muslim holy land ever since Islam existed.  It’s as if the Arab Muslims had taken over Italy and mass-murdered and expelled all the Catholics.

Marianne Williamson

Well, that particular land, the land of Palestine, was certainly not their Mecca. But I understand what you’re saying. Okay. So we don’t agree on that one. But that’s okay.

Kevin Barrett

Right. And I’m sure that colors our respective views of Iran.

Marianne Williamson

No, I don’t think it does color my view of Iran. I mean, it certainly colors my view of Iran in terms of the actions that Iran takes, but I think it’s much more than that, I think that clearly it’s a totalitarian government.  And the idea of pretending that it’s not…I mean, even when you were talking about when your guest was talking about how they have a right to develop nuclear bombs for peaceful purposes…(music interrupts)

Kevin Barrett

Okay, we’ll be back in a moment. Kevin Barrett with Marianne Williamson.

Part 3

Kevin Barrett

Welcome back to Truth Jihad Radio. I’m Kevin Barrett, agreeing with everything Marianne Williamson said in the first segment, and disagreeing in the second segment. I love hearing different viewpoints. And actually, Marianne, I probably agree with you more than it sounded like from that past segment.

Marianne Williamson

Yeah, I think you and I … I don’t think there was as much…we went over it.

Kevin Barrett
.
I admit I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I don’t know if you know about it, but I was chased out of the academy back in 2006 for talking about the questions surrounding what really happened on September 11th, 2001. I’ve lost two jobs, one tenure-track job, at the University of Wisconsin, and I’m unemployable in the American academy right now. So if saying we have a fascist country, if that means you can’t even come close to telling the truth about the most important event of the century, and still have a job as a professor – or at least you’re risking your job – then we’re pretty fascist.

Marianne Williamson

Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. And I think…listen, to have questions about 9/11, to me, is no different than having questions about the Warren Commission. And I don’t believe in the single bullet theory of the Kennedy assassination either.

Kevin Barrett

Good for you!

Marianne Williamson

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I thought that when Van Jones was let go from the Obama Administration, I don’t think he should have gone so quietly.

Kevin Barrett

Hear hear. That’s what I told Russia Today: “Van Jones should have done what I did!” But of course then he would be unemployable too.

Marianne Williamson

But then, playing along with that wasn’t…but you know how all that goes, yeah.

Well, I think that a large part of what you and I are talking about is that these larger conversations exist, and people should talk about what we want to talk about. And the fact that we don’t always agree on everything…that’s what freedom is. That’s the beauty of it.

Kevin Barrett

Well, let’s talk a little bit about some more of the 95% of things we do agree on. When you sent out your press release about the Sister Giant event that you’re doing, the three issues that are singled out are child poverty, prisons as a growth industry, and democracy imperiled. And I would put those right up at the top of my list, too.

Marianne Williamson

Well, we have a 23.1 child poverty rate, which of the developed nations is second only to Romania. We have an incarceration rate higher than any nation in the world, and any nation in history. And as I’m sure you talk about on your show a lot, the Citizens United decision by the Supreme Court means that corporations can anonymously and in an unlimited fashion donate to political campaigns, so that for all intents and purposes we have changed the social contract, from government of the people, by the people, and for the people, to a government of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations, to a government of a few of the people for a few of the people. And if only economic leverage gets you political power in the United States then of course children will get left out, because children have no economic leverage. And that’s exactly what’s happened. And I believe that the country in the world that needs a pro-democracy movement is the United States.

Kevin Barrett

We sure do.

Marianne Williamson

And I don’t think either political party represents the spearhead of that movement. You have one major political part that looks at all this unnecessary, amazing amount of human suffering on the planet, even when its own policies might indirectly contribute to that suffering, and it says “Well, it’s too bad about that, government doesn’t have a role in fixing it. And if private charity can do that, that would be lovely.”

But I have a bone to pick with the other major political party too, which looks at all that suffering, makes a big show of caring about their pain, does what it can on the periphery to ameliorate some of it – but no more than the other political party is willing to seriously challenge the underlying forces that make all that suffering inevitable.

And I think that after this presidential race, it’s going to break loose! The chokehold that the Democrats and Republicans have on our system is going to be challenged. In the narrative, the social history, of the American social justice movements – I’m sure you know this – abolition came from the Abolitionist Party, women’s suffrage came from the Suffragette Party, Social Security came from the Socialist Party. In fact, George Washington, in his Farewell Address, warned us against political parties.

Kevin Barrett

That’s right. Washington’s Farewell Address is one of the great documents of American history, isn’t it?

Marianne Williamson

Absolutely. One of the things we’re going to do at Sister Giant on Saturday night, we’re going to have speakers from five political parties, from Democrats and Republicans to the Justice Party. Kevin, have you ever talked to Rocky Anderson from the Justice Party?

Kevin Barrett

You know, I haven’t talked to him yet, but I hope to.

Marianne Williamson

He’s great. He was the mayor of Salt Lake City for eight years. He is running for President. I think he’s really on to something. And we’re going to hear from the Green Party, we’re going to hear from the Libertarians…people are really going to disenthrall themselves from the illusion that we only have those two choices, Democrats and Republicans.

Kevin Barrett

I would sure hope so. I was hoping that would happen in 2008, when I was running as kind of left Libertarian, just to confuse people (laughter), I was the only Libertarian supporting single-payer health care. And that got me an opponent in the primaries. But it’s so frustrating, you look at the polls and see Congress’s approval rating is about 12 percent, everybody hates Congress. And then they did the bankster bailout while I was running, and I was just hammering at the bankster bailout. And the idiot incumbent Ron Kind was actually supporting the bankster bailout, while admitting that every single call he got was against it…You would THINK that in those circumstances, people wouldn’t just vote for the incumbent.  (A third-party breakout) is just waiting to happen. And I agree, Marianne, I hope it comes soon.

Marianne Williamson

Well, there’s a line, I think it’s from John F. Kennedy: Those who make peaceful evolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. There are too many points of tension and underground rumbling inside the American psyche, both on the left and the right. And I think that what we’re talking about having a conversation, that I think you and I are having, and that all of these efforts are part of  – your show, Sister Giant, and so forth – where people can have a conversation that is not the mainstream corporate dominated political establishment dominated conversation, which people can feel in their hearts is not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And even those of us who feel that way – and you and I are an example here today – it doesn’t mean that we’ll agree on every little thing either. But it means we’re having a conversation that is somehow based on some semblance of what’s really going on on the planet.

Kevin Barrett

That’s right. And also, it’s based on genuine good will. And that’s where I think we’ve really lost something with the rise of neoconservatism. It’s based on a political philosophy of enmity. I don’t know if you’ve studied this, but neoconservatism was founded by Leo Strauss, the top student of the leading Nazi philosopher Karl Schmidt. And their political philosophy is that politics is the science of hatred and enmity – that politics is all about gathering people together to hate somebody. And they’ve used that philosophy to really destroy all of what was good in America. And I think we need spiritual people like you, and women and other people who have compassion as a high-level trait, to get into politics and take it back from these lunatics.

Marianne Williamson

Let me ask you a question. Who do you think is going to win the election?

Kevin Barrett

Well, honestly, I kind of think Obama will win. But it’s a tough one. You probably won’t agree with me on this, but I think the real overriding issue here is: Do we risk World War III by going to war with Iran and maybe Russia and China? And I think the Republicans are in the hands of the Zionist organized crime outfit that has been dedicated to going to war with Iran ever since they blew up the Trade Towers.

Marianne Williamson

So you think the Zionist organized crime unit were the ones who did 9/11?

Kevin Barrett

Absolutely, just google “Larry Silverstein WTC-7.”

Marianne Williamson

So wait, I need to ask: So I understand the theory of 9/11 being an artificially-created Pearl Harbor in order to justify an Iraq war…

Kevin Barrett

It wasn’t just about Iraq. It was about a century of war destroying the Islamic world, and in particular destroying the enemies of Israel. And that’s what they’re still pushing for.

Marianne Williamson

So, you know…yeah. The way I look at Israel, I look at Israel like I look at the United States: The people of Israel are not the government of Israel…

Kevin Barrett

That’s right.

Marianne Williamson

…Any more than the people of the United States are the government of the United States. So even though I do not, for the most part, agree with the government of Israel at all – and also as a Jew, because I am a Jew and committed to the existence of Israel – because your worldview would just obliterate something that I can’t…that I do not wish to see obliterated. So I think what’s clear is that we need a miracle in the Middle East. If we’re going to bring the spiritual (into politics)…What I’ve done in my talks, and did last Monday night – Kevin, I think you’ll like this – it’s based on a meditation fro the Course in Miracles. And we do it with the Israelis and the Palestinians. And we close our eyes, and we see with our inner eye, an Israeli on one side of our inner mind, our inner vision, and we see a Palestinian on the other. And in meditation we see a light that’s in the heart of the body of the Israeli, and the light begins to expand and cover the body. The body itself becomes shadowy. The great rays begin to expand outward from the body. Then we look at the Palestinian.  (This is all with our eyes closed in meditation.) And we look at the Palestinian with that same light inside them that then expands, covers the entire inner body, and then it extends outward from the skin. The body itself becomes shadowy, right? And then what happens, in meditation, is you see the light from the Israeli, that then merges with the light in the Palestinian. And that is obviously in the realm of the spirit, it’s a realm beyond the body. And as we witness it in meditation, something extraordinary and miraculous happens. THAT’s the level from which answers will emerge. It’s a miraculous transformation.

Kevin Barrett

I love it. I’m with you all the way.

Well, thank you so much for your pioneering work and your peacemaking. I hope to have you back some time.

Marianne Williamson

I do appreciate it. God bless you for what you do, and I do look forward to talking to you more.

Kevin Barrett

God bless you too.

That’s Marianne Williamson. I’m Kevin Barrett, back with more Truth Jihad Radio later in the week.

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Kevin Barrett

Dr. Kevin Barrett, a Ph.D. Arabist-Islamologist is one of America’s best-known critics of the War on Terror.

He is the host of TRUTH JIHAD RADIO; a hard driving weekly radio show funded by listener donations at Patreon.com and FALSE FLAG WEEKLY NEWS (FFWN); an audio-video show produced by Tony Hall, Allan Reese, and Kevin himself. FFWN is funded through FundRazr.

He also has appeared many times on Fox, CNN, PBS, and other broadcast outlets, and has inspired feature stories and op-eds in the New York Times, the Christian Science Monitor, the Chicago Tribune, and other leading publications.

Dr. Barrett has taught at colleges and universities in San Francisco, Paris, and Wisconsin; where he ran for Congress in 2008. He currently works as a nonprofit organizer, author, and talk radio host.

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